Comments on Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism: Goo-Goo Historical Mythology

while i may or may not have writing skills, i don'...

2005-11-11T13:42:00.000-08:00

while i may or may not have writing skills, i don't have the in depth knowledge that others have on the New Left/Libertarian revisionist histories. therefore, any essay i did write would lack confidence, and expertise.

second, it takes me a painstakingly long to time write anything more substantial than two paragraphs.

third, i have wrist tendinitis.

so the motivation is there, and i think about doing it, but other things get in my way.

I might have spelt that ad hominem, if I'd paid at...

2005-11-10T21:30:00.000-08:00

I might have spelt that ad hominem, if I'd paid attention in typing class.

colorless - I've read two diaries on DailyKos this...

2005-11-10T19:11:00.000-08:00

colorless - I've read two diaries on DailyKos this year. One was a baseless, ad hominen attack on Justin Raimondo by someone who couldn't have read his book. The other was yet another moronic diatribe on the evil antiwar movement that included a racist attack on some speakers who participated in Sept.'s march on Washington. The writing in both cases was shite.

So you have the skills, no doubt. Why not the motivation?

Kucinich is no firecracker when it comes to foreign policy. UN in US out? I bet he skipped an afternoon nap coming up with that one.

Diane,I guess I live in a more Kucinich type of to...

2005-11-09T23:35:00.000-08:00

Diane,

I guess I live in a more Kucinich type of town, where the lefty's were as pissed at clinton as the righty's. I wouldn't be surprised if clinton did know.

DailyKos is such a huge forum, and any well written, provocative (and well timed) diary can make it up the recommended chart. i don't understand why more good writers don't take advantage of it. i lament the fact that i am a poor writer, else i would.

p.s. - reparations/affirmative-action... call it what you will, it was still a good case.

Also interesting is that Ira Katznelson's from NY ...

2005-11-09T18:59:00.000-08:00

Also interesting is that Ira Katznelson's from NY Review of Books actually makes a pretty strong case for more affirmative-action.

I'd be inclined to call it reparations.

One note, though, in 1998 we didn't know that Sadd...

2005-11-09T18:36:00.000-08:00

One note, though, in 1998 we didn't know that Saddam didn't have WMDs, in 2002 we did.

Actually, it was known in 1995. It was then that Hussein Kamel told the U.N. inspections team "All weapons-- biological, chemical, missile, nuclear, were destroyed."

The UN might have "hushed up" to "bluff Saddam into disclosing still more." And you may choose to believe that Clinton and the NSA (at least) weren't privy to the truth, but I prefer to live in reality.

As for this liberal/prog activism thing, do you mean the base that jumps whenever American Progress and DailyKos tell them to? John Podesta, Clinton's COS, runs AP - he conspired with Uncle Bill, Barak, Aunt Maddy, Dennis Ross et. al., to smear the Palestinians when their amateur hour, aka Camp David, failed. Some believe that unconscionable PR offensive led to the al-Aqsa Intifada. I agree.

Do these people lie, even when thousands of lives are at stake? Obviously. One of the few people who seem to have remained consistent is Scott Ritter. He was crying foul during the Clinton years, too.

Why not the lib/progs - then or now?

So I was reading this and noticed the comments. A...

2005-11-09T16:30:00.000-08:00

So I was reading this and noticed the comments. Are there two libertarian Logans out there that read this blog, or is someone pretending to be me?

Diane,I'll grant you this: there is a group of Dem...

2005-11-09T14:19:00.000-08:00

Diane,

I'll grant you this: there is a group of Democrats of DLC/NRO/status quo variety, who would have cheered on a Clinton backed invasion of Iraq (indeed most of them even cheered Bush' invasion, a well). But it is a mistake to equate those establishment Dems with the liberal/progressive activist base.

Josh Micah Marshall is a Hill staffer, so he basically gets paid to apologize for Clintons misadventures. One note, though, in 1998 we didn't know that Saddam didn't have WMDs, in 2002 we did. That's not to excuse Clenis, but to ignore that difference is disingenuous.

Ok, here's the thing:People like Joe Vechio know f...

2005-11-09T11:59:00.000-08:00

Ok, here's the thing:

People like Joe Vechio know fuck-all about libertarianism beyond the "pot-smoking Republican" stereotypes, because libertarians who aren't like that make little to no effort at outreach towards potential allies on the left. Most libertarians are content to remain in the "kool-kidz" club where they are privy to special knowledge about the real working of things, where anyone who does not intuitively understand these things is hopelessly lost.

The sad fact is, that libertarians are a small, outside of the mainstream group that--besides the valiant effort of Carl Milsted and his allies--have little interest in effecting change. When faced with the possibility of doing something vs. arguing theoretical points, they tend to choose latter eagerly.

Vechio's post was no doubt a crude attack, no doubt based on dealings with crude libertarians, who, agin--are the majority, or at least most vocal. The one really good thing about the left-end of the blogosphere is that there is a huge, completely open forum for anyone to bring up their ideas for conversation. I have found that there are many libertarian leaning folk aligning themselves with the Democratic party right now, but they are joining on key issues, and surpressing a lot of their libertarian beliefs. That is unfortunate, because I think if those beliefs were posed the right way, they could find a good deal of support.

Domhoff, William J. : "...markets can have the vir...

2005-11-09T11:40:00.000-08:00

Domhoff, William J. :

"...markets can have the virtue of being a decentralized form of coordination and control that does expand opportunity for most people. A market system is first and foremost a general social system that makes it possible to have coordination through mutual adjustments. It is a form of cooperation in which people do not have to attend a series of meetings beforehand, or enter into lengthy discussions, or even like each other."

i'm sure you agree that sounds good so far. but what's this?

" ...And there is competition as well as cooperation, but the competitive aspects of the system can be shaped by planning through the market."

"planning through the market"??? Didn't he read Kolko? Oh wait...

"True, markets also can make it possible for the owners of income-producing private property to gain the power to dominate government, as is currently the case in the United States."

he did read Kolko! But there's more...

"But by their very nature they leave open the possibility that government can limit the power and rewards of ownership through taxes, subsidies, government purchases, and regulation. Government also can create competitive public enterprises to compete with privately owned companies, and it can tax incomes and wealth far more than it is doing now without disturbing the functioning of the market. The real issue is political power. If a liberal-labor-left coalition had political power, it could have significant impact on the economy. Of course capitalists would howl and threaten, but they do that already."

I guess he missed the memo about how all business interests were actually clamoring for every regulation that was ever introduced.

And here he goes again:

"That is, taxes, subsidies, government purchases, and regulations could be used by egalitarians to do planning through the market if they had enough power in the government."

Silly Goo-Goo... government is for Statists.

Also interesting is that Ira Katznelson's from NY Review of Books actually makes a pretty strong case for more affirmative-action.

You probably have a point, colorless. But I'm only...

2005-11-09T11:17:00.000-08:00

You probably have a point, colorless. But I'm only human.

If you look at the original posts, I'm pretty much returning the tone in kind.

Joe Vecchio made a lot of nasty generalizations about libertarians, apparently feeling by no means hindered by the fact that he knew fuck-all about libertarianism beyond the "pot-smoking Republican" stereotypes. And he repeated the Art Schlesinger fantasies about the "progressive" nature of the New Deal and all the "laissez-faire" evils it was intended to cure.

When Diane pointed out that the New Deal wasn't all that progressive, Joe complained that [paraphrase] "That's beside the point--my point was about libertarians, not the New Deal. And anyway, we're natural allies against the right-wing Republican enemy." That despite the fact that

1) one of Vecchio's main criticisms of libertarians concerned our alleged ignorance of the wonderful New Deal;
2) Diane is a libertarian; and
3) Vecchio's post was a crude attack on libertarians essentially arguing that they were THE SAME as the right-wing Republican enemy.

If Diane's criticism is beside the point, then everything Vecchio said in his original post was beside the point of what he really intended to say.

PS - Diane, yeah, I'm a liberal who voted for Kerr...

2005-11-09T04:06:00.000-08:00

PS - Diane, yeah, I'm a liberal who voted for Kerry. At night I dream that it was him dropping chemical weapons on Iraqi civilians. **swoon**

Must be why you voted for a man who promised to send more troops by the thousands and really get the job done. What job is that, exactly?

Keevin,fantastic post. of course, i've read your ...

2005-11-08T23:35:00.000-08:00

Keevin,

fantastic post. of course, i've read your blog enough (it's one of my favorites) that after i read the title, and intro, i almost don't even have to read the rest of the post to get the gist (though i do, just because i like your writing). i've also read Kolko and Domhoff (whom i had as a prof at ucsc)--it's interesting, if you read his website, you get, well, basically "Goo-Goo" solutions.. albeit more radical than the standard progressive fare.

anyway, the reason i'm writing this is because it strikes me that the author of that dKos post probably really only knows the Art Schlesinger party line, because that's what available for those who aren't history buffs. It also strikes me that such an author is also probably a potential ally, who might be open to new ideas, if they are presented from a sympathetic perspective (which I believe yours is), rather than from someone who appears dumbfounded that arcane revisionist histories are not obvious to the layman. see what i'm saying though? I'll spell it out.

1) you have good ideas.
2) that author is probably sympathetic to your goals.
3) make outreach, rather than belittleing stupid "Goo-Goos" (even though it's fun)

PS - Diane, yeah, I'm a liberal who voted for Kerry. At night I dream that it was him dropping chemical weapons on Iraqi civilians. **swoon**

Terrific post, Kevin. But these are the same libe...

2005-11-08T18:34:00.000-08:00

Terrific post, Kevin. But these are the same liberals who would be cheerleading the occupation of Iraq if Kerry was in the WH sending their family members to kill Iraqis. What do they care if their so-called New Deal was the same old shaft to African American citisens.

Great post, Kevin!Logan - I know that many liberta...

2005-11-08T17:40:00.000-08:00

Great post, Kevin!

Logan - I know that many libertarians praise Cleveland as being one of the best US Presidents, but his response to the 1894 Pullman strike was extremely unlibertarian, to say the least.

The very fact that Delicate Monster thinks that th...

2005-11-08T16:01:00.000-08:00

The very fact that Delicate Monster thinks that the Bush II, Reagan, and McKinley administrations are the closest we've ever come to a libertarian government shows that he knows nothing of libertarianism. I would go with Martin Van Buren, Grover Cleveland, and "Silent Cal" Coolidge as the most libertarian and his list would be put near the bottom of my list.